And the Spirit & the bride say, come.... Reveaaltion 22:17

And the Spirit & the bride say, come.... Reveaaltion 22:17
And the Spirit & the bride say, come...Revelation 22:17 - May We One Day Bow Down In The DUST At HIS FEET ...... {click on blog TITLE at top to refresh page}---QUESTION: ...when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? LUKE 18:8
Showing posts with label PLANETS-Jupiter. Show all posts
Showing posts with label PLANETS-Jupiter. Show all posts

Sunday, March 16, 2025

Creation Moment 3/17/2025 - Role of Jupiter

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; Hebrews 1:2

"One of Jupiter’s most important jobs is to act as a cosmic shield. Because of its massive size and strong gravity, Jupiter can pull in or deflect many asteroids and comets that might otherwise collide with Earth. Imagine Jupiter as a giant vacuum cleaner sucking up debris that could cause catastrophic effects on our planet. Without Jupiter, the frequency and magnitude of impacts on Earth would be much higher, potentially making our planet a much more hazardous place to live.

Jupiter also plays a crucial role in influencing the asteroid belt located between Mars and Jupiter. This region contains numerous rocky bodies that could potentially be a danger to Earth. Jupiter's strong gravitational field helps to keep many of these asteroids in their place, preventing them from drifting into the inner solar system where they could pose a threat to Earth. By maintaining the stability of the asteroid belt, Jupiter reduces the chances of large asteroid impacts that could be devastating to life on our planet.

Jupiter’s gravity doesn’t just protect us from space debris; it also helps keep the solar system stable. The giant planet’s gravitational pull affects the orbits of other planets, including Earth’s. This gravitational influence helps maintain the relatively stable orbits that we observe, which is essential for a stable climate on our planet. Accordingly, a stable climate means Earth can support diverse ecosystems and, thus, life.

From protecting us from dangerous space debris to helping maintain stable orbits, Jupiter’s influence is essential for life on our planet." ICR

Wednesday, July 3, 2024

Creation Moment 7/4/2024 - Intricate Structures (of an Intricate Creation)

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Hebrews 1:2

"Jupiter’s upper atmosphere is composed of a neutral thermosphere and charged ionosphere. Astronomers using the NASA/ESA/CSA James Webb Space Telescope have spotted unexpected small-scale intensity features such as arcs, bands and spots in Jupiter’s low-latitude ionosphere in the region above the Great Red Spot.

Because
Jupiter receives only 4% of the sunlight that is received on Earth, astronomers predicted this region to be homogeneous in nature.
University of Leicester astronomer Henrik Melin and his colleagues observed the
Great Red Spot in July 2022 using the Integral Field Unit of Webb’s Near-InfraRed Spectrograph (NIRSpec).

Their Early Release Science observations sought to investigate if this region was in fact dull, and the region above the iconic
Great Red Spot was targeted for Webb’s observations.
They were surprised to discover that the upper atmosphere hosts a variety of intricate structures, including dark arcs and bright spots, across the entire field of view.

Although the light emitted from this region is driven by sunlight, the team suggests there must be another mechanism altering the shape and structure of the upper atmosphere.
One way in which you can change this structure is by gravity waves — similar to waves crashing on a beach, creating ripples in the sand,” Dr. Melin said." 
SciNews

Wednesday, November 1, 2023

Creation Moment 11/2/2023 - Salt Everywhere -- Even Jupiter

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Hebrews 1:2

"Two poisonous elements: an explosive solid and a toxic gas, when combined, make one of the most useful and ubiquitous substances we know: sodium chloride, or salt.

Just add salt: Researcher discovers a safe, simple way to make disinfectants work better (University of Alberta, 23 Oct 2023). This team found that disinfectants are more effective with salt.

Adding salt to the mix in quantities above 2.5 per cent weight per
volume can make a huge difference. But it has nothing to do with the chemical properties of the
salt itself, says Choi. Rather, as the alcohol and water in the disinfectant evaporate, the salt recrystallizes and grows, physically destroying the cell walls of pathogens. 
By adding salt, we can add another mechanism — physical destruction — to the chemical destruction, and we can cause the rapid inactivation of pathogens faster and more efficiently, without any concern about mutations or structural difference.

The Solar System’s biggest moon is spattered with salt (Nature, 30 Oct 2023). Salts and Organics Observed on Ganymede’s Surface by NASA’s Juno (NASA, 31 Oct 2023). 

 The Juno spacecraft is discovering amazing things about Jupiter’s moons. Ganymede, Jupiter’s largest which beats Titan for size by a bit, is now found to have salt on its surface. Don’t be confused by
NASA’s term “organics” — it just means molecules containing carbon, not substances associated with life.

The JIRAM data of Ganymede obtained during the flyby achieved an unprecedented spatial resolution for infrared spectroscopy – better than 0.62 miles per pixel. With it, Juno scientists were able to detect and analyze the unique spectral features of non-water-ice materials, including hydrated sodium chloride, ammonium chloride, sodium bicarbonate, and possibly aliphatic aldehydes." CEH

Monday, June 19, 2023

Creation Moment 6/20/2023 - Young Io

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; Hebrews 1:2
 
"Io is the most volcanically active body in our solar system. The

colors of its surface are due to the different temperatures of various sulfur-containing compounds. Io’s volcanism is so intense that at today’s rates, it would have turned itself “inside out” more than 100 times in 4.6 billion years. Radioactivity can only make a small contribution to Io’s heat output, so uniformitarian scientists attribute most of Io’s present-day heat to tidal flexing. For a long time, creationists made much of the fact that simple models of tidal flexing could only produce a small fraction of Io’s observed heat output. This was an argument for youth because the only remaining option to explain Io’s warmth was leftover heat from its formation, which is only possible if Io is young.

But these previous calculations focused mainly on gravitational tugs that
Jupiter exerted on Io and the other Galilean moons. It was assumed that the tugs the moons exerted on each other were not as important. 
A recent paper, however, claims that this inter-moon tidal heating can be significant if the moons have subsurface liquid or magma oceans. If so, previous tidal heating estimates for these moons may need to be significantly revised.
So, present-day tidal flexing might be capable of explaining Io’s heat output after all. This idea only works, though, if the presumed subsurface oceans have just the right thicknesses. Until additional data or calculations shed more light on the issue, I would caution against dogmatism on this point.
Even so, Io still presents problems for evolutionists because its erupting lavas are rich in magnesium. Geologists would say they are ultramafic. But magnesium is a heavy element, and magnesium should have settled deep into Io’s interior after billions of years. In that case, lavas on Io should be depleted in magnesium, but this isn’t the case.
The idea that Io’s crust is ultramafic (magnesium-rich) seems inconsistent with the well-understood process of magmatic differentiation. Heat flow on Io is sufficiently high that Io was expected to have undergone partial melting and differentiation hundreds of times, producing a low-density crust, depleted in heavy elements like magnesium.
Some scientists think a completely molten core and a crystal-rich magma ocean together could explain how Io’s crust could still be magnesium-rich after billions of years. But both possibilities are disputed by other uniformitarian scientists.
Another option for evolutionists is to claim that Io’s volcanism was much weaker in the past and only recently intensified. This would explain the presence of magnesium in Io’s crust. But this would mean that we’re lucky to be observing Io at such a special time in its history.
ICR

Saturday, November 19, 2022

Creation Moment 11/20/2022 - Valetudo Lesson

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Genesis 2:1
 
"The massive planet Jupiter has been found to have an additional 12
moons, bringing its total as at July 2018 to a whopping 79 moons.
Most moons orbit their host planet in the same direction as the planet rotates, called a prograde orbit. 
---But Jupiter’s moons have a band of outer moons which go around the opposite way, called a retrograde orbit. 
 
This poses a challenge for the conventional naturalistic explanation of planetary formation called the Nebular Hypothesis. In this, a putative swirling cloud of dust and gas accretes to form the planets and moons of our solar system. 
**If this were true, then the planets and moons should all rotate and orbit in the same direction, but they don’t.
 
Among the newly discovered moons there was an oddball prograde moon, dubbed Valetudo, which is hurtling around Jupiter in the opposite direction to its immediate neighbors risking a head-on collision. The report from researcher Scott Sheppard and published by Carnegie Science said:
As a result, head-on collisions are much more likely to occur between the ‘oddball’ prograde and the retrograde moons, which are moving in opposite directions. “This is an unstable situation,” said Sheppard. “Head-on collisions would quickly break apart and grind the objects down to dust.”
Clearly, this prograde moon orbiting in the midst of retrograde moons could not have been there for millions or billions of years.  
The observable evidence is entirely consistent with the solar system being created just six thousand years ago on Day 4 of Creation Week." CMI

Sunday, November 7, 2021

Creation Moment 11/8/2021 - Peering Deep Into the DESIGN of Jupiter Part 2

Peering Deep Into the DESIGN of Jupiter---what purpose this DESIGN serves we will not fully know in this life...but interesting to ponder.... Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb.1:2

'Juno’s microwave radiometer (MWR) allows scientists to peer beneath Jupiter’s cloud tops and probe the structure of its numerous vortex storms. The most famous of these storms is the Great Red Spot.


The new results show that the Jovian cyclones are warmer on top, with lower atmospheric densities, while they are colder at the bottom, with higher densities.

Anticyclones, which rotate in the opposite direction, are colder at the top but warmer at the bottom.

The findings also indicate these storms are far taller than expected, with some extending 100 km (62 miles) below the cloud tops and others.

This surprise discovery demonstrates that the vortices cover regions beyond those where water condenses and clouds form, below the depth where sunlight warms the atmosphere.

The researchers examined the gravity signature of the Great Red Spot and further constrained its depth.

Planetary researchers are still trying to solve the mystery of how the jet streams form. Data collected by Juno’s MWR during multiple passes reveal one possible clue: that the atmosphere’s ammonia gas travels up and down in remarkable alignment with the observed jet streams.

By following the ammonia, we found circulation cells in both the north and south hemispheres that are similar in nature to ‘Ferrel cells,’ which control much of our climate here on Earth,” said Keren Duer.

While Earth has one Ferrel cell per hemisphere, Jupiter has eight — each at least 30 times larger.

Juno’s MWR data also show that the belts and zones undergo a transition around 65 km (40 miles) beneath Jupiter’s water clouds.

At shallow depths, Jupiter’s belts are brighter in microwave light

than the neighboring zones.

But at deeper levels, below the water clouds, the opposite is true — which reveals a similarity to our oceans.

We are calling this level the ‘Jovicline’ in analogy to a transitional layer seen in Earth’s oceans, known as the thermocline — where seawater transitions sharply from being relative warm to relative cold,” said Juno team member Dr. Leigh Fletcher, a researcher at the University of Leicester." BreakingSciNews

Saturday, November 6, 2021

Creation Moment 11/7/2021 - Peering Deep Into the DESIGN of Jupiter Part 1

Peering Deep Into the DESIGN of Jupiter---what purpose this DESIGN serves we will not fully know in this life...but interesting to ponder.... Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb.1:2

"Data from the microwave radiometer carried by NASA’s Juno spacecraft shows that Jupiter’s banded pattern extends deep below the clouds, and that the appearance of Jupiter’s belts and zones inverts near the base of the water clouds.

At altitudes shallower than five bars of pressure (or around five times the average atmospheric pressure on Earth), the planet’s belts shine brightly in microwave light, whereas the zones are dark. But everything changes at higher pressures, at altitudes deeper than 10 bars, giving scientists a glimpse of an unexpected reversal in the meteorology and circulation.....and that the mid-latitude bands not only extend deep, but seem to change their nature the further down you go.

Planetary scientists call the light, whiteish bands zones, and the darker, reddish ones belts. Jupiter’s planetary-scale winds circulate in opposite direction, east and west, on the edges of these colourful stripes.  
A key question is whether this structure is confined to the planet’s cloud tops, or if the belts and zones persist with increasing depth.

At the cloud tops, Jupiter’s belts appear bright with microwave emission, while the zones remain dark. Bright microwave emission either means warmer atmospheric temperatures, or an absence of ammonia gas, which is a strong absorber of microwave light.

This configuration persists down to approximately five bars. And at pressures deeper than 10 bars, the pattern reverses, with the zones becoming microwave-bright and the belt becoming dark. Scientists therefore believe that something – either the physical temperatures or the abundance of ammonia – must therefore be changing with depth.

There are two possible mechanisms that could be responsible for the change in brightness, each implying different physical conclusions.

One mechanism is related to the distribution of ammonia gas within the belts and zones. Ammonia is opaque to microwaves, meaning a region with relatively less ammonia will shine brighter in Juno’s observations. This mechanism could imply a stacked system of opposing circulation cells, similar to patterns in Earth’s tropics and mid-latitudes.

These circulation patterns would provide sinking in belts at shallow depths and upwelling in belts at deeper levels – or vigorous storms and precipitation, moving ammonia gas from place to place.

Another possibility is that the gradient in emission corresponds to a gradient in temperature, with higher temperatures resulting in greater microwave emission.

Temperatures and winds are connected, so if this scenario is correct, then Jupiter’s winds may increase with depth below the clouds until we reach the jovicline, before tapering off into the deeper atmosphere – something that was also suggested by NASA’s Galileo probe in 1995, which measured windspeeds as it descended under a parachute into the clouds of Jupiter." SciTechDaily

Sunday, October 24, 2021

Creation Moment 10/25/2021 - Io

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God... Hebrews 11:3

"Jupiter’s moon, Io, is by far the most active volcanic body in our solar system. Io raises questions regarding what drives its intense volcanism. Scientists have endeavored to explain the heat radiated by Io and its interesting surface features. Theoretical models of Io have been developed that imply Io has been recycled by volcanism and tectonics over billions of years. However, it is possible to reinterpret the evidence from Io from a young age perspective.
The age of Io was addressed in my 2003 paper in Proceedings of the Fifth International Conference on Creationism. That paper described tidal dissipation and the active volcanism in this moon of Jupiter. It was argued that an age of less than 10,000 years for Io was more plausible than an age of billions of years. Tidal dissipation is a well-known process generating heat in the interior of Io as it orbits Jupiter

The heat is generated from distortion of the shape of the body, more specifically from friction and movement of non-rigid material in the interior. Io radiates approximately 1014 watts of energy in infrared radiation. In the 2003 paper, I argued that tidal dissipation was not the only heat source in Io and that if Io is understood as only thousands of years old, some of the heat could still be primordial. This paper will update the subject of Io and its volcanism and argue that a young age is still plausible in the light of recent research.

In today’s models of Io, the moon must recycle itself. This means that Io must have been completely resurfaced many times in the history of the solar system, including a process of destroying and rebuilding the mountains. Keszthelyi et al. aptly summarize the magnitude of the problem. These comments were made not long after the end of the Galileo mission:

“If Io has been as volcanically active as it is today (erupting ~550 km3/yr. of lava (Blaney et al., 1995) for the past 4 billion years, it has produced a volume of lava equivalent to ~140 times the volume of Io. … The observed enstatite-rich, high-melting-temperature lavas should not exist on a highly differentiated Io. The only way such lavas could exist is to efficiently recycle the crust into the mantle.”

This figure of 140 times the volume of Io presents a problem for assuming Io is very old. In recycling a moon, likely the core would not participate since it is not feasible to ‘remix’ the core with mantle material. Galileo gravity measurements estimated that Io’s core accounted for about 14% of the mass of Io. Thus, leaving the core mass out of the recycling could increase the 140 figure above to 160 times the portion of Io participating in the recycling. Also, the quote above comments on high-melting-temperature lavas. One would expect that after many cycles of remixing into the mantle and volcanism driving material back to the surface, the higher-density minerals would stay in the lower mantle and the composition of the lavas reaching the surface should become more uniform over time. Yet the spectra and temperatures observed on the surface imply the lavas are of varied compositions.

This recycling of Io’s entire mass 140 times in over 4 billion years appears to be taken on faith by scientists today. The possibility of Io being only several thousand years old is not considered in the above comments. Yet, assuming a young age simplifies explaining Io. On evaluation, recycling the entire surface of Io would require a process to destroy and rebuild the mountains many times! 

A young-age view of Io eliminates the need to explain how a mass equivalent to most of the mass of Io could be recycled many times. In a young-age view, the volcanism could be essentially one way. There is some evidence suggesting large magma chambers under Io’s surface (such as Loki). Presumably, these do not remix into the mantle because they are not dense enough to sink. There is not a clear explanation of how the remixing into the mantle would take place. Only the assumption that the weight of the lavas would accomplish it........the implications of the models require a process that would recycle the volume of Io 140 times in over 4.5 billion years. All the mountains on Io would have to have been broken up and recycled into the mantle, then rebuilt repeatedly. There is evidence of some uplift of mountains along fault structures. The large volume of lavas likely creates stresses that cause some isostatic readjustment of the surface. But to infer from this that the entire moon has been recycled over and over is unreasonable. It is clear that the surface of Io is relatively young. Thus, the entire moon can be interpreted as young without contradicting known facts. Io is unique among moons in our solar system. It provides a useful laboratory for the study of tidal effects and orbit resonance. Io was apparently created to be a volcanic powerhouse which demonstrates God’s creativity." CMI

Tuesday, August 24, 2021

Creation Moment 8/25/2021 - Young Ganymede

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God... Hebrews 11:3
 
"June 7, 2021, NASA’s Juno spacecraft flew closer to Jupiter’s moon Ganymede than any spacecraft had ever before. Ganymede is the
largest moon in the Solar System—a body larger than the planet Mercury. Its frozen surface holds interest as a distant water source. Analysts still ponder three unique features of Ganymede, one of which they’re now seeing for the first time. If reactions to youthful features on other bodies out there offer any lesson, then long-age believers will end up once again wrestling with why this moon also looks young.

A NASA web post that accompanied Juno’s new image noted “long structural features possibly linked to tectonic faults.” And faults imply geologic activity, which of course requires energy. If these faults turn out to look like recently formed features, will uniformitarian thinkers craft tales to keep this moon’s geology energized over billions of years? That’s what happened with Earth’s Moon and with Pluto. 
Q: If over 4 billion years old, then shouldn’t these bodies all be geologically dead many times over?

NASA scientists have also trained the Hubble telescope onto Ganymede. A newer analysis of 1998 observations revealed water vapor in its atmosphere. Their 2021 report in the journal Nature Astronomy described a process where just enough sunlight hits the equator to vaporize surface ice. Lead author Lorenz Roth told NASA, “The water vapor that we measured now originates from ice sublimation caused by the thermal escape of water vapor from warm icy regions.”  
Q: Can ice keep getting sublimated off the moon’s surface for billions of years? 
 
And like so many unexpected discoveries of still-active magnetic fields in Solar System planets and moons, those 1998 spectra revealed electrified gas bands that “provided further evidence that Ganymede has a weak magnetic field.” But it shouldn’t have any magnetic field at all!
 
Magnetic fields decay like spinning tops. These magnetic fields can’t last billions of years, but they could last thousands of years, even without a dynamo. Since the Lord Jesus created this moon along with its decaying magnetosphere just thousands of years ago, as indicated by Scripture, this mystery disappears." CMI

Sunday, August 8, 2021

Creation Moment 8/9/2021 - Jupiter's Lesson in Design

All these interconnected Mechanisms that function to run even an uninhabited planet that still serves a purpose (whether we understand it or not) shows Design, Thought and Planning put into it's Creation...Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God.. Hebrews 11:3

"The upper atmosphere of Jupiter is hotter than expected from the amount of sunlight that it receives: the average temperature should be about minus 73 degrees Celsius; instead, the measured value soars to around 426 degrees Celsius. The source of this extra heat
has remained elusive for 50 years, causing planetary scientists to refer to the discrepancy as an ‘energy crisis.’ Now, using data from NASA’s Juno spacecraft, the W.M. Keck Observatory and JAXA’s Hisaki satellite, researchers have discovered the likely source of this thermal boost.
 
Aurorae occur when electrically charged particles are caught in a planet’s magnetic field. 
----These spiral along invisible lines of force in the magnetic field towards the planet’s magnetic poles, striking atoms and molecules in the atmosphere to release light and energy.
----At Jupiter, material erupting from its volcanic moon, Io, leads to the most powerful aurora in the Solar System and enormous heating in the upper atmosphere over the polar regions of the planet.
----The idea that the aurora could be the source of Jupiter’s mysterious energy had been proposed previously but observations have been unable to confirm or deny this, until now.
----We found that Jupiter’s intense aurorae, the most powerful in the Solar System, are responsible for heating the entire planet’s upper atmosphere to surprisingly high temperatures,” said Dr. James O’Donoghue.
 
Models of the atmospheres of gas giants suggest that they work like a giant refrigerator, with heat energy drawn from the equator towards the pole, and deposited in the lower atmosphere in these pole regions. These new findings suggest that fast-changing aurorae may drive waves of energy against this poleward flow, allowing heat to reach the equator." SciNews

Wednesday, April 14, 2021

Creation Moment 4/15/2021 - Valetudo tells us......

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God...
Hebrews 11:3
 
"The massive planet Jupiter has been found to have an additional 12 moons, bringing its total as at July 2018 to a whopping 79 moons. 

Most moons orbit their host planet in the same direction as the planet rotates, called a prograde orbit. 
 
But Jupiter’s moons have a band of outer moons which go around the opposite way, called a retrograde orbit. This poses a challenge for the conventional naturalistic explanation of planetary formation called the Nebular Hypothesis. In this, a putative swirling cloud of dust and gas accretes to form the planets and moons of our solar system. If this were true, then the planets and moons should all rotate and orbit in the same direction, but they don’t.
 
Among the newly discovered moons there was an oddball prograde moon, dubbed Valetudo, which is hurtling around Jupiter in the opposite direction to its immediate neighbors risking a head-on collision. The report from researcher Scott Sheppard and published by Carnegie Science said:
As a result, head-on collisions are much more likely to occur between the ‘oddball’ prograde and the retrograde moons, which are moving in opposite directions. “This is an unstable situation,” said Sheppard. “Head-on collisions would quickly break apart and grind the objects down to dust.”
---Clearly, this prograde moon orbiting in the midst of retrograde moons could not have been there for millions or billions of years. The observable evidence is entirely consistent with the solar system being created just six thousand years ago on Day 4 of Creation Week." CMI

Monday, March 22, 2021

Creation Moment 3/23/2021 - "Amazing" Power of --- Jupiter

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds... Hebrews 1:2;

"New results from the Ultraviolet Spectrograph instrument on NASA’s Juno mission reveal for the first time the birth of auroral dawn storms – the early morning brightening unique to Jupiter’s spectacular aurorae. 
 
Researchers found 
---dawn storms are born on the nightside of the gas giant. 
---As the planet rotates, the soon-to-be dawn storm rotates with it into the dayside, where these complex and intensely bright auroral features grow even more luminous, emitting anywhere from hundreds to thousands of gigawatts of ultraviolet light into space. 
---The jump in brightness implies that dawn storms are dumping at least 10 times more energy into Jupiter’s upper atmosphere than typical aurora.
 
 “The power that Jupiter possesses is amazing. The energy in these dawn aurorae is yet another example of how powerful this giant planet really is,” said Scott Bolton....The dawn storm revelations are another surprise from the Juno mission, which is constantly rewriting the book on how giant planet’s work." SciTechDaily

Saturday, August 1, 2020

Creation Moment 8/2/2020 - Hot Jupiters Undermine Jupiter Evolutionary Cosmology

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God...
Hebrews 11:3

"Kenneth Croswell describes some of the new models trying to explain the birth of Jupiter. Planetary scientists thought they had the gas giants figured out in the 1990s, until some inconvenient
facts got in the way.

The discovery of “hot Jupiters” around other stars threw the models into disarray; instead of slow accretion out beyond the “frost line,” they had to invoke gravitational billiards to get them to migrate in close to the parent stars. It also threw the models of our Jupiter’s origin into a cocked hat.

Everything they thought they knew was wrong, and it was time to start over. They invented new models, like pebble accretion and disk instability, with type-II migration to move the gas giants closer in after they formed."
CEH